Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

General discussion about pigeon genetics
Lotus
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Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Lotus »

Hopefully, I am not spamming this forum - I have posted similar info in Personal Breeding Projects on the thread "Lotus Pigeon" [莲花 鸽子] .
I have not started on this project yet, nor have I got any pigeons. The last time I have pigeons was during my juvenile years when I have a dozen mixed flock of High-Flyers, Rollers & Tumblers.
It is more prudent to do some initial literature search, background reading and talk to expert specialist breeders before I embark on such a project.

I m a novice to genetics, however I have been a keen learner of Mendelian Genetics - into genetics of Budgerigars, Geese, Betta & some Aquarium fish, Poultry (Chicken) and Pigeons.
Most of my basic understanding about pigeon genetics come from https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/pigeons/
My understanding of molecular genetics is almost zero but hope to get there some time in the future, when I am more conversant with genetics and molecular chemistry (DNA & RNA in particular).

I came across a very old manuscript many years ago (in the mid 1980s before the digital age) that described an ornamental "Lotus Pigeon" [莲花 鸽子] once found in ancient China - the flare of the large, rounded tail and the large full fan neck hood forming two bowls touching each other like flower petals, and the full head crown (cap? crest?) forming an inner floret, its rounded body resting low on full long feathered feet that form a circle like the lotus leaf, the overall impression is like a lotus flower resting on its leaf on a lake.
It seems like this "Lotus Pigeon" would have look like a Fantailed Bokhara Trumpeter with a Jacobin's mane & hood on a compact, rounded body.

Based on my limited knowledge and the description above, I am trying to recreate this pigeon from modern breeds.
The logical step then would be to cross [Indian Fantasy x Saint] hybrids to [Bokhara Trumpeter x Indian Fantail] hybrids.
As the Indian Fantasy and the Saint are both breeds created in the USA and unavailable in Australia, I may need to start from ground zero.
The 3 visual morphological feather characteristics needed at the fore front are:
1) Long full feathered Leg Muff: both the partial dominant Slipper gene and the recessive Grouse gene are needed.
The genetics of Leg Muff has been well studied - https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content ... feathering

2) Full upright Fantail: need a full Fantail to form the posterior 'bowl'
The partial dominant Fantail feathering gene had been studied - https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/p ... 086/279652
However, the genetics of TAIL CARRIAGE and BODY TYPE of Fantails have not been well documented.
Most knowledge of the Fantail breed come from expert specialist breeders, so I will appreciate input and dialogue from Fantail fanciers.

3) Large full Hood-Mane-Chain and full round Head Crest: are required to form the anterior 'bowl and floret'
The recessive genetic character of crest formation had been published in recent times - https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/pigeons/crest
However, the MODIFIERS that influence the various types of crests (the Hood & Mane of Jacobin, the Shell & Round Head Crest of Bokhara Trumpeter, and the Body Crest of Owls) are still unknown at present.
Therefore, any information, advise or input from expert specialist breeders and fanciers are welcomed for better informed decision makings.

I look forward to hearing and receiving inputs from members of this forum.
All advice, education and opinion from specialist expert breeders, or the pigeon fancier community at large, will be very much appreciated.
Thank you all in advance.
Last edited by Lotus on Sun Apr 16, 2023 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lotus
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Lotus »

Does anyone in this Forum breeds, or know of breeders of Fantails (Indian Fantails in particular), Jacobins and/or Bokhara Trumpeters?
Would love to hear from you.
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AdamArcher
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by AdamArcher »

Post as often as you like!

This is a very interesting and well researched project. I hope it goes well for you.

Would using Holle Croppers for the body help get you to the shape you're after? I'm just trying to imagine it from what you've described...
Lotus
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Lotus »

AdamArcher wrote: Sun Apr 16, 2023 9:56 am Post as often as you like!

This is a very interesting and well researched project. I hope it goes well for you.

Would using Holle Croppers for the body help get you to the shape you're after? I'm just trying to imagine it from what you've described...
Are these the Holle Croppers that you are talking about, Adam? (photos attached for your reference).
They sure have the body type to improve the final prototype, when it eventually materialised.
Is this breed available in Australia? I have not seen them an any of the major shows like the Sydney Royal Easter Shows or Brisbane's Ekka.

My main concern about using the Holle Cropper to improve body type is that this breed has none of the (mostly recessive) feather morphologies that is needed to incorporate into the 'Lotus Pigeon'.
This could lead to a 'reversion to the wild type' if too many back crosses are needed to improve body type.
Attachments
Holle Cropper BrownBar
Holle Cropper BrownBar
HolleCropper BrownBar.jpg (4.7 KiB) Viewed 2936 times
Holle Cropper Black Pied
Holle Cropper Black Pied
HolleCropper BlackPied.jpg (5.7 KiB) Viewed 2936 times
Pilot
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Pilot »

"Lianhua pigeon or Lotus Pigeon" in Chinese (莲花鸽) refers to a breed of domestic pigeon that has a distinctive lotus-shaped crest on its head. This breed is also known as the "frillback pigeon" in English."
Lotus
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Lotus »

Pilot wrote: Mon Apr 17, 2023 11:27 pm "Lianhua pigeon or Lotus Pigeon" in Chinese (莲花鸽) refers to a breed of domestic pigeon that has a distinctive lotus-shaped crest on its head. This breed is also known as the "frillback pigeon" in English."
Thank you for your reply and input, Pilot.
I think that the modern Frillback Pigeon that is now called "Lianhua pigeon or Lotus Pigeon" (莲花鸽 in Chinese) bears no resemblance to the 'Lotus Pigeon' described in that cited paper: the flare of the large, rounded tail and the large full fan neck hood forming two bowls touching each other like flower petals, and the full head crown (cap? crest?) forming an inner floret, its rounded body resting low on full long feathered feet that form a circle like the lotus leaf, the overall impression is like a lotus flower resting on its leaf on a lake.

It is unclear if "Lotus" (莲花 - Lianhua in Chinese) is an accurate translation since lotus leaf and lotus flower actually rise above the water surface.
Another flower that looks like the lotus but its leaf and flower floats on the water surface is the Water Lily (荷花 - Herhua in Chinese).

Attached is a photo of modern Crested Frillback pigeon for comparison, and it does not fit the above description at all.
Crested Frillback White
Crested Frillback White
FrillBack White.jpg (7.89 KiB) Viewed 2926 times

However, if you can imagine and visualise attaching a Fantail to the model drawings of the Bokhara Trumpeter pigeons (pictures attached), and enlarge the Shell Crest of the Bokhara model into Hood&Mane, and shrink the body of the Bokhara model a little and lift/tilt the attached Fantail forward to touch the Hood&Mane, then you will get a very close approximation of the described pigeon found in ancient China. :)
Bokhara Model Profile Front
Bokhara Model Profile Front
Bokhara Standards Profile Front.jpg (7.73 KiB) Viewed 2926 times
Bokhara Model Profile Side
Bokhara Model Profile Side
Bokhara Standards Profile Side LQ2.jpg (21.87 KiB) Viewed 2926 times
Bokhara Model Profile Top
Bokhara Model Profile Top
Bokhara Standards Profile SideTop.jpg (7.35 KiB) Viewed 2926 times
Pilot
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Pilot »

It sounds like the description of the "Lotus Pigeon" in the cited paper refers to a specific breed of pigeon with distinct physical characteristics, including a large, rounded tail and a full fan neck hood that resembles flower petals. However, it seems that the modern Frillback Pigeon that is now called "Lianhua pigeon or Lotus Pigeon" in Chinese may not have the same physical characteristics as the "Lotus Pigeon" described in the paper. It's possible that the name "Lotus Pigeon" is used to refer to different breeds of pigeons in different contexts.
Pilot
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Pilot »

Based on your description, it sounds like the Lotus Pigeon you're referring to is a highly ornamental breed of pigeon that resembles a lotus flower in its appearance. It has a large, rounded tail with a full fan neck hood that forms two bowls touching each other like flower petals, and a full head crown that forms an inner floret. Its rounded body rests low on full, long feathered feet that form a circle like a lotus leaf. Overall, the bird gives the impression of a lotus flower resting on a leaf on a lake. However, without a visual reference or more detailed description, it's difficult to provide a more accurate depiction of the bird.
Lotus
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Lotus »

Pilot wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:42 am It sounds like the description of the "Lotus Pigeon" in the cited paper refers to a specific breed of pigeon with distinct physical characteristics, including a large, rounded tail and a full fan neck hood that resembles flower petals. However, it seems that the modern Frillback Pigeon that is now called "Lianhua pigeon or Lotus Pigeon" in Chinese may not have the same physical characteristics as the "Lotus Pigeon" described in the paper. It's possible that the name "Lotus Pigeon" is used to refer to different breeds of pigeons in different contexts.
I am afraid that might be the case, Pilot.
In modern times, the Lotus Pigeon is a breed name, while in the citation it was a descriptive name. :)
Pilot wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 4:56 am Based on your description, it sounds like the Lotus Pigeon you're referring to is a highly ornamental breed of pigeon that resembles a lotus flower in its appearance. It has a large, rounded tail with a full fan neck hood that forms two bowls touching each other like flower petals, and a full head crown that forms an inner floret. Its rounded body rests low on full, long feathered feet that form a circle like a lotus leaf. Overall, the bird gives the impression of a lotus flower resting on a leaf on a lake. However, without a visual reference or more detailed description, it's difficult to provide a more accurate depiction of the bird.
I would imagine so Pilot; it sounded very highly ornamental indeed ..... unfortunately, it was a citation, and no pictorial or visual reference was available.
It fascinated and intrigued me for quite some time - it was this that prompted me to start reading about the various types and breeds of ornamental pigeons.
Then I thought, if this is an extinct breed, perhaps it could be recreated, as many of the modern pigeon breeds are derived from very selective breeding.
Diagrammatic drawings of the Bokhara Trumpeter Pigeon come closest to the described bird, except the Bokhara Trumpeter has not got a Fantail, and its sizable Shell Crest is a little smaller/shorter than the Hood&Mane crest I imagined but it has an additional full round Rose Crest on its crown, and the Bokhara Trumpeter's body type is on the stout side.
Otherwise, the Bokhara Trumpeter come quite close to a 'flower' resting low on its 'leaf' description.
Bokhara Trumpeter Framed Drawing
Bokhara Trumpeter Framed Drawing
Bokhara PicFramed.jpg (7.91 KiB) Viewed 2919 times

Bokhara Trumpeter Drawing (Red Pied)
Bokhara Trumpeter Drawing (Red Pied)
Bokhara Sketch Red.jpg (9.39 KiB) Viewed 2919 times

Bokhara Trumpeter Drawing (Blue Bar)
Bokhara Trumpeter Drawing (Blue Bar)
Bokhara Sketch BlueBar.jpg (7.88 KiB) Viewed 2919 times


The Indian Fantail profile is used as a comparison.
Indian Fantail Standards Profile Side
Indian Fantail Standards Profile Side
Fantail-Indian Standards Profile Side L3.jpg (21.17 KiB) Viewed 2919 times
Pilot
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Re: Crests, Mane & Hood, Fantails & Leg Muff Genetics

Post by Pilot »

Lotus wrote: Fri Apr 14, 2023 8:51 pm
Based on my limited knowledge and the description above, I am trying to recreate this pigeon from modern breeds.
The logical step then would be to cross [Indian Fantasy x Saint] hybrids to [Bokhara Trumpeter x Indian Fantail] hybrids.
As the Indian Fantasy and the Saint are both breeds created in the USA and unavailable in Australia, I may need to start from ground zero.
The 3 visual morphological feather characteristics needed at the fore front are:
1) Long full feathered Leg Muff: both the partial dominant Slipper gene and the recessive Grouse gene are needed.
The genetics of Leg Muff has been well studied - https://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content ... feathering
Breeding a Bokhara Trumpeter and an Indian Fantail pigeon can result in a variety of outcomes depending on the specific genetics of the parent birds. It is possible to see a range of color variations and feather traits in their offspring.

Bokhara Trumpeter pigeons are known for their distinctive crests and trumpeting calls, while Indian Fantails are known for their large size and elegant tail feathers. The specific traits that are expressed in their offspring will depend on the dominant and recessive genes inherited from each parent.

In general, the offspring of this cross may have a combination of the following traits: crested head, large body size, long and elegant tail feathers, and a range of colors and patterns. The exact outcome is difficult to predict without more information about the genetics of the parent birds.

while that of Indian Fantasy x saint it is difficult to say what the outcome might be. However, keep in mind that breeding for specific traits can be challenging and may require several generations of selective breeding but never the less is a good kick off. thanks
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