Crossbreeding idea

General discussion about pigeon genetics
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alexbreeze
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Crossbreeding idea

Post by alexbreeze »

Recently I have been looking into ways of creating an ornamental bird of exceptional size. Two of the potential methods I have thought of would be to cross an English Pouter and a Giant Runt or Show King. The goal would be to produce a bird with the English Pouters large height especially in long legs (16 inches for larger cock birds) with the stocky heavy frame of the Giant Runt or show kings. Would line breeding or inbreeding a cross between these two produce this result?
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AdamArcher
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by AdamArcher »

It would be a long project, it can definitely work but expect to be putting at least 10 years into the project to get exactly what you want and have them "breeding true".
alexbreeze
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by alexbreeze »

In terms of the type goals the priority is to produce a bird with the broad frame and long head of the Giant Runt with the proportionally longer legs, neck and beaks of the English Pouter. I've heard some rumors that the mother has more control over type. Is there any evidence of this, and if so which breed would you recommend for the parents. Would the desired traits show in the f2s and f2s, or after that?
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AdamArcher
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by AdamArcher »

As far as I know there isn't any sex linkage in regards to body type.

You might get something similar to what you're after in the early generations, the harder part will be getting them to "breed true", as there will be a lot of heterozygosity in the genepool of the early generations.
alexbreeze
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by alexbreeze »

I would guess in terms of hybrid vigor and homozygosity it would take a generation after the cross to get the desired outcome consistently outside of hybrid vigor and 3 or 4 more generations of line or inbreeding after that to get it to breed true.
alexbreeze
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by alexbreeze »

Would it be easier just to select very heavily for high station, muscle and longer legs in the Giant Runt?. I am still looking for a good breeder for giant runts.
Lotus
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by Lotus »

You should think of the end product too in your breeding plan - are you trying to produce a large bird with plenty of Breast meat or a large bird with plenty of tigh & drumstick meat, or both?
Are you happy with just producing the end product (established a consistent Hybrid), or you want your end product to breed true (established a true breed)?
Like a lot of commercial chicken breeds, the end product is a HYBRID cross of 2 established strains and such hybrids don't breed true.

Since the English Poulter and the Giant Runt/Show King are already established breeds/strains, you may want to establish your own F1 hybrid line (so line breeding) to cross breed a F2 (and F3? and/or F4) that will give you the desired end product.
The genetics of body type is not well known or published.
I have a friend in Queensland that cross white Kings and white Modena into other breeds to improve meat quality and taste for supply to local restaurants.
Johannes
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by Johannes »

I’d be interested in hearing how this is going and your incremental goals. This sounds a great challenge but will take so much patience without losing sight of your intended outcome. How will you monitor it? How many pairs will you start with?
Alexander23
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Re: Crossbreeding idea

Post by Alexander23 »

It seems that this will be a very long journey. And the final goal is not very clear. This uncertainty usually forces one to be distracted by interesting genetic deviations that are obtained along the way. Nevertheless, I want to wish you success in your endeavor. It would be interesting to observe step by step generation by generation. Of course, I would also like to visually see the silhouette of the final result in the form of a primitive drawing. Otherwise I imagine a king with very long legs. By the way, there is already something similar, the Hungarian Giant. Good luck
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