General discussion about pigeon genetics
Yes, that is the Holle Cropper I was referring to. I believe they're in Australia, but there is every chance I'm wrong on that one.
I had given some thoughts about the Body Shape and Size of the eventual Lotus pigeon.
First and foremost, the feather morphology factors (Leg Muff, Crests and Fantail) of the Lotus must be established and fixed.
The Body Size and Shape improvements will have to come at the end stage of the project for the following reasons:
1) The genetics of Body Size and Shape is not as well documented as other feather morphology factors such as Leg Muff, Crests and Fantail.
2) Body Size and Shape are more complicated factors to quantify and specify than feather morphology factors.
3) The final outcross breed that is selected should have at least one (if not more) of the feather morphology factors (Leg Muff, Crests and Fantail) other than the desired Body Size and Shape
The following breeds are likely candidates: A) The Exhibition Fantail - nice small compact rounded body with upright tail carriage and very good tail feather spread.
(+) Has a fantail that can be used to improve the tail factor of the Lotus
(-) No Leg Muff or Crest, so may dilute these feather morphology factors of the Lotus
B) The Russian Posture Tumblers - correct body size, shape and carriage with small crest, some tail spread and some leg feathering
(+) Has all the feather morphology factors of the Lotus, although of lesser quality/type.
(-) Breed strains and quality is very variable, and may not be available in Australia
C) The American/Indian Fantasy - feather morphology factors all present in varying degrees
(+) Has the correct feather morphology factors and could be use to improve/enhance initial prototypes.
(-) Body Size, Shape and Carriage is very variable and not available in Australia.
If anyone else in this forum has any suggestions or critiques, I am more than happy to hear from you.
Afterall, I'm here to learn and explore options and possibilities.
Thank you for your advice and reminder, Pilot.Pilot wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:57 am Breeding a Bokhara Trumpeter and an Indian Fantail pigeon can result in a variety of outcomes depending on the specific genetics of the parent birds. It is possible to see a range of color variations and feather traits in their offspring.
Bokhara Trumpeter pigeons are known for their distinctive crests and trumpeting calls, while Indian Fantails are known for their large size and elegant tail feathers. The specific traits that are expressed in their offspring will depend on the dominant and recessive genes inherited from each parent.
In general, the offspring of this cross may have a combination of the following traits: crested head, large body size, long and elegant tail feathers, and a range of colors and patterns. The exact outcome is difficult to predict without more information about the genetics of the parent birds.
while that of Indian Fantasy x saint it is difficult to say what the outcome might be. However, keep in mind that breeding for specific traits can be challenging and may require several generations of selective breeding but nevertheless is a good kick off. thanks
I am fully aware that this project is an 'uphill challenge', and for this reason I am trying to be prudent and contemplative before embarking on such a project.
The Bokhara Trumpeter and the Indian Fantail have very different 'structure' in their feather morphologies - cross-breeding them is 'risky' and their off springs may possess numerous combinations and intermediates of the wanted characteristics, or in the worst-case scenario a 'reversion to wild type' could occur and none of the wanted feather morphologies show up in the off springs.
The American Saint pigeon is basically a Muffed Jacobin developed in late 1950s / early 1960s.
After all these years, there is still quite a vast variation in its 'type' - some have better Leg Muff than others, while the Mane-and-Hood is still not as well formed as the Jacobins in some strains.
The American/Indian Fantasy pigeon is a more recent development that began in late 1970s.
It is basically an India Fantail with a Mane-and-Hood instead of a Peak Crest.
This breed is still a 'work in progress' judging by the body types, quality of the Mane-and-Hood, and tail feathers.
Your comment about "a range of colours and patterns" in the off springs got me thinking - I went back to refresh my understanding about the colour genetics of the domestic pigeon.
I don't think having a large range of colours and patterns in the off springs is a good idea at this point of time.
So, I shall only concentrate on Self-Blacks or Self-Whites.
Self-Black with the Spread gene will make the entire bird appear black irrespective of its base pattern, and any other unexpressed colours.
On the other hand, Self-White will suppress all pigment formations and make the bird appear white, thereby negate the underlying colour and pattern of the bird.
I know Self-White Indian Fantails, Jacobins and Bokhara Trumpeters are not too difficult to acquire.
Likewise, for Self-Black Fantails and Bokhara Trumpeters - however, I have not seen a Self-Black Jacobin before.
'Black' Jacobins in the Standard are actually Piebald Black birds (white flight feathers, white tail feathers).
If I need to breed any patterns, then I shall have to select foundation birds with similar Piebald markings - in case of Fantails, the Black Saddle is more common than the Piebald.
My question: Does anyone know if there is any published article regarding Pattern Inheritance of the Piebald Markings?
Last edited by Lotus on Tue Apr 25, 2023 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
I was doing some literature search and saw this interesting article about the possible genetics of the Fantail, in the Pigeon Genetics Newsletter, November 2014 issue.